From Corporate Burnout to Impactful Entrepreneurship: Kate Nash on Healing and Course Creation

Jim Burgoon: 00:00:00

Welcome to Grace and the Grind, the podcast where we dive deep into the journeys of heart centered and purpose driven leaders and entrepreneurs. We're here to equip and encourage you on your journey. So let's get started and find the grace within the grind. This is Grace in the Grind.

And now your host, Jim Burgoon.

Host: 00:00:23

Welcome to Grace in the Grind where we're here to equip, to empower, and to encourage you to do all that that God has for you in this life. And today, we're so excited to have Kate Nash, a friend on the show. Kate, welcome to the show.

Kate Nash: 00:00:36

Thank you. I'm so delighted to be here with you.

Host: 00:00:38

So why don't you take about 90 seconds and let the audience know who you are and what you do.

Kate Nash: 00:00:43

I'm Kate. Nice to meet you all. I am an instructional designer for a lot of people who don't know what that means.

It means I'm the one responsible for creating a lot of the training that people go through when they do their jobs and stuff, which sometimes can seem kind of boring. And don't, don't raise your fist at me. I only create really good training.

if that's what you say, since: 2007

Host: 00:01:12

And so. So you left the corporate space, you started your own, your own thing, right?

Kate Nash: 00:01:17

Yeah.

Host: 00:01:17

How was it, how was it like working in the corporate? Let's start there. Let's start with the corporate. And then I want to talk about transition.

Kate Nash: 00:01:23

There are parts of corporate that are like a dream. I remember when I took my last job, I was like, I can't believe they pay me to do all this fun stuff.

I got to go into, see a variety of different jobs that people were doing and speak to experts and figure out how to make the training. So it was, you know, the most efficient, efficient, most effective. So the people.

Of course, I'm really allergic to boring stuff, so I wanted to make it interesting. You'll have to ask me about the drain cleaning video here in a second.

But I really, really loved the variety of things that you could do working in corporate environment. And sometimes it just feels like it's carte blanc, like whatever you want to do, you can do it.

In some cases, it can seem like there's so many resources available and so many experiences to do. So I did a lot of different training in a lot of different areas. So I worked for a Public supermarket for the last 13 years in the corporate space.

And then for five years I worked for my very beloved Radio Shack. Five years in the training department and then 10 years in the stores before I was in training.

And I really loved working for Radio Shack too is also. It was just like a dream to do all those things.

Now I did not necessarily like corporate politics and that does exist and it is a thing and it is part of the reason I left. But I did love the experience and the variety of work I got to do and the clients I got to work with and the employees I got to help. It was amazing.

Host: 00:02:47

Now I want to say first and foremost, I haven't heard the name Radio Shack in a number in a minute. That's been a while since man, that's cool. That's.

Kate Nash: 00:02:54

That is my life. That is my life. I, I got hired there when I was 19 and I worked there until I was about 32. It was on and off again.

I did, you know, before college, after college and all over the place. But I loved working there.

Host: 00:03:08

So. So in the midst of all of this, right, you're. You're coming up in the corporate world.

You know, there's a lot of talk around being, you know, male versus female dominated. And then. So what were some of the challenges.

Kate Nash: 00:03:20

You faced in Radio Shack with it being male dominated or just, just in.

Host: 00:03:24

Corporate world in general with, with that type of overtone that's been talked about over the years. So how. What were some of the challenges you faced?

Kate Nash: 00:03:32

I think part of the, the probably the biggest challenge, if I was going to say this is it. And of course I'm much older now and five years ago my. So is something different. And in five years I might say something different yet.

So I'm still growing and evolving.

But if I was to point my finger and, and say this is the, this is the problem and the breakdown with a lot of working in corporate environments, it's that hierarchy.

It's that positioning or the feeling that you have to be better than somebody else and somebody else might be better or the fear that somebody else might be better than you. A lot of posturing and it sometimes the way that corporate invol way that corporate and corporate isn't alone.

The way that a lot of organizations reward what they see as desired behaviors is based on what they observe in a person. And a lot of those observations, for instance, you're in a meeting whose idea wins. It's not the best idea, it's the best positioned idea.

And so you'll Find people who are very brilliant, who aren't really good at maybe posturing, and they'll get out done by somebody who's brilliant at getting up in front of people. I don't think there's a way to say these are our people.

And instead of measuring and I've done this and I've hated it, but I've been in meetings when I was a manager where I was told I had to rank all the people and my associates, who's the best and who's the worst. And I don't like looking at people that way. I like saying, this is Cheryl. I never had a Cheryl working for me, so use that name on purpose.

Here's Cheryl. This is what makes Cheryl great. These are the projects she does really well with. Here's where she needs help.

Instead of saying, Cheryl is better than Betty and Betty is better than Carl.

Host: 00:05:14

So, so, like, in this environment, like, I find this fascinating. How did you navigate the environment without losing yourself?

Kate Nash: 00:05:22

Well, I, I, well, I'm not there anymore. And part of the reason is I pushed back against a lot of those expectations. I decided to run my team my own way.

But in that it wasn't a fit for the company. It just wasn't a fit for the way they did business.

And I can see now, looking from their aspect to me, you know, I wasn't somebody who is innovative and coming up with a cool solution. And in doing something different, I was rogue. I was, I was deviant, you know, deviant to the. Deviating from the expectation.

Host: 00:05:53

Yeah, so that's, that's interesting to be, to be labeled the rogue or something just because you're doing your thing. I mean, I'm sure you're producing results, but because you weren't playing the game. Yeah, that's, that's so, so amazing results.

Kate Nash: 00:06:06

But they didn't look at those like, they were just looking at their culture and how I was. They didn't say I was a threat to their culture. But that is, looking back, I think that's what it was. I was a threat to the culture.

Host: 00:06:17

Yeah. So. So you're navigating all of this and then you decide the transition.

So what, first and foremost, what was the first, like, nail in the coffin, per se? That was like, I'm. I'm gonna go do my own thing.

Kate Nash: 00:06:28

This is okay. I told you there was nothing off limits. But I don't know how you zeroed in on the one thing I really, really am hesitant to talk about.

But let's just say, and I want to Keep everything kind of like this is. Other, other people are involved in it. So I just want to keep it kind of.

But let's just say it was made very clear to me that I would not find any progression in the company. And so I felt like I cannot prove, you know, how people like see what they expect to see.

And so if they expect to see you fail, they're not looking at all the successes that you had. I can't promise. I started thinking about myself. Like I don't think I can be the person I am and move forward in trying.

I love experimenting and we talked about dabbling in AI. I'm not an expert in it, but I love experimenting and trying new things.

I cannot guarantee that I won't make a mistake because I like to experiment and try new things.

Host: 00:07:21

Right.

Kate Nash: 00:07:22

And they're looking for me to make a mistake.

Host: 00:07:24

So, so, so, so we're, we're transitioning out now. You know, how did you, how did you like manage corporate mindset into like now you're an entrepreneur now you're trying to build your own business.

Like there's a mindset shift in the two. Like they're not the same. So how did you manage making that shift? Like what were some of the things you had to do?

Kate Nash: 00:07:43

It's a huge mindset shift. I was, I'm an expert in instructional design. I'm an expert course creator.

You give me any course to do and I am your, you know, I'm your go to person. But I'm not really good at running a business. You know, like I didn't know like marketing. I didn't know what it meant to make CEO type decisions.

So that was a huge, huge gap. And for some reason I thought there's all these courses being done online. I'll just hang up my shingle and people go, oh, our salvation is here.

I can't wait to work with Kate. She can make my course great, you know. And that was, that was not the, that was not how it happened.

Host: 00:08:19

Right.

Kate Nash: 00:08:19

Yeah.

Host: 00:08:20

So, so then what, what was like what were the, what was the process to help you make that transition?

Like walk us through because there's a lot of people on, on, on the listening who maybe want to leave their nine to five, want to leave their, you know, their, maybe they have own a brick and mortar business or in corporate and they're trying to leave, but they're stuck in that mindset. Like what are some of the things that you can say? Like this is what I had to do in order to make that Transition.

Kate Nash: 00:08:45

Yeah.

With working in corporate, there's always this idea of giving and there's never an expectation that I'm going to ask you for anything other than the stuff that I need to do the job. Working for yourself, it's like you cannot give without also asking for payment. So that was like a really big mindset shift.

I'm going to, oh, sure, I can do this for you. It's going to cost you $2,500 or whatever the, you know, the fee is going to be. That was a huge mindset shift.

It used to be like, whatever you want to do, I'll do that and more, I'll, I'll exceed your expectations. This idea of over prom, under promising and over delivering was really, really big in corporate.

But you can't do that when you're working for yourself. You can't under promise everybody's promising more and you can't over deliver because it, there's a cost to over delivery.

Host: 00:09:36

Right.

Kate Nash: 00:09:37

You know, I can't just go, oh, you know, client a, what's this? But I can do even more because that even more is going to cost me a lot of time.

And I could be using that for marketing or I could be using that on another client. So that was like a huge shift for me. And it feels like I don't want to leave my clients with like a less than type thing.

So that has been, you know, a struggle and still an ongoing struggle. I still fortunately have never had a client who hasn't been fully satisfied with what I've done.

You know, so even with pulling back, I'm still, people are still very satisfied. I am a very hard worker and that is one of the things I did learn for corporate from corporate.

But the other, the biggest thing too is I thought, you know, I would just hang out my shingle and that would work. And then my second iteration of working for myself was I have to find the right strategy or the magic word so people will buy from me.

And then it really took the hard work of realizing what's really holding me back more than anything is I don't want to be authentic in front of people or vulnerable in front of people. There's so much self esteem issues I have to work through. So it isn't some magic strategy or magic words. It's really a lot of healing.

Host: 00:10:45

Yeah, that's, that's, that alone is an incredibly vulnerable statement. I don't want to be authentic in people and I want to honor that because that's, that's powerful to say that and having to work through that.

And then when you said.

You said, I still struggle, one of the things I think I appreciate the most is when people are able to openly admit, hey, listen, I'm gaining ground, but I still got a ways to go. Like, so I just want to take a second to honor that. That's. Wow.

And so I want to go some lines of questions in these things, but before I do, I want to take a pause for a second because you had mentioned the. The Dream Cleaner video or something like that. The dream. And I want to go back to that because I.

I want to dive into some of the feelings and I want to dive into what you're doing now and how you learned to over, you know, learn the skills. So first and foremost, let's hit up the drain clean thing that you mentioned.

Kate Nash: 00:11:33

This is a drain cleaner video. This was a. We had to do a quick training because we changed the drain cleaning procedures at the last place I worked.

And the old drain cleaning procedure had to do with putting, like, what looked like a toilet bowl brush underneath a plastic bag and spraying some sanitizer down the drain and plunging it several times to clean that drain really well. And it was this whole process that was very messy, you know, very, very messy.

And then they came up with this, what seems like a magical project where you just spray it for eight seconds and you just let it be like, you have to clean out the. The top of the drain, but you don't have to do any of those plastic bags or stuff.

But we decided to do the train, the drain cleaning video and do it really fun. And it was this very short video that was, I think it was like five minutes.

And it was an infomercial for a product where this guy went over the top and he talked about how amazing this, you know, set it and forget it. We just took all the best of all the infomercials, and it was so entertaining.

So people loved watching this drain cleaning video whether they had to clean drains or not. And every time we took that video down, we would get a request to put that video back up.

But it was just using that as an opportunity to say, not all draining, not all training has to be boring. It can be fun and interesting and make people laugh and still teach what needs to be taught or make them cry, as the case may be.

Host: 00:12:54

Yeah, I love that. The emotional grab. So let's. Let's. Thank you for sharing that. Because I wrote it down. I circled.

I was like, all right, now I am interested and curious. So we're Gonna do that.

And let's go back to some of the things you know about, you know, sharing and struggles and stuff, because I find this incredibly fascinating because you're an incredibly talented individual. Right.

So with that being said, how did you learn some of the skills to, you know, run your own business as opposed to just running to another corporate. Like, how did you get through that? Like, what were you, what was your process? What were your, what were the skills that.

Or how did you learn those skills quickly, let's say it that way.

Kate Nash: 00:13:33

I did a couple of coaching programs with a number of different people and I learned from all over the place. As an instructional designer, learning is kind of like second nature to me. I know how to do research, I know how to find information.

That part wasn't that hard to do. I mean, I know how to make decisions and do, you know, cost benefit analysis and Ben Franklin's and leadership skills and that sort of thing.

It really was about the emotional healing that was the hardest part.

It was the recovery from a lot of abuse in my childhood and stuff like that that cropped up whenever I had to go out and sell myself, whenever I had to tell people why I'm the right choice that I.

Host: 00:14:12

So that brings up some really important lines of thinking here because there's a lot of people that still struggle with that. The childhood trauma, the insecurities, the inferiorities, the. All of that.

What was a breakthrough moment that helped you, like really say, I can see, I can do this, I can sell and be and feel good about it. Like, what was a breakthrough moment for you?

Kate Nash: 00:14:31

There were a few of them. One was this idea that I.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I was in my 40s when I realized, late 40s before I realized that thoughts were option optional. Like you don't have to believe the voices that are in your head. I didn't really even, maybe even think about it. I thought it was normal.

That was one of the breakthrough moments for me. Another one was this need to be right. Like I thought that being right was the. Was desirable, you know, kind of like it.

You had to be right about everything. And I started thinking like, why is it so important to be right all the time?

Just asking myself that question help me uncover some of the reasons why I tied a lot of personal self esteem to being right. If I was wrong, then I'm not worth of anything, so I have to be right. Does that kind of make sense?

Host: 00:15:22

It makes perfect sense. No, it doesn't kind of. It makes perfect sense because as somebody who is I.

I love to say I'm a recovering people pleaser, recovering perfectionist because of my own trauma growing up. And so a lot of times when you have people who are in the entrepreneur space, we very much get our.

All of our validation and our worth from external things. If the external thing doesn't work, we don't work. If the external thing is crap, we're crap. Like, we.

We make those judgments in those parallels, but they're not true because my worth doesn't depend on what I produce. It's already in there. So that's a breakthrough that I had over the last couple years myself. So, no, you're right on. You're right on.

And I'm sure the listeners are loving this because a lot of the listeners, particularly my audience, deal with some levels of this.

Kate Nash: 00:16:10

Yeah.

Host: 00:16:11

You know, and so, so here's. Like, this brings up some real. I love what you said. Thoughts are optional. Like, okay, we can just like, close everything down there. That's like, pow.

Right? Here's the question that really comes to things. So you're dealing with your childhood trauma, you're dealing with the.

The mindsets of corporate transitioning into, you know, your own business. Have to have this uphill battle of learning while dealing with the nonsense, while dealing with the emotions. How did you not quit?

Kate Nash: 00:16:40

I am not a quitter. I'm just not. I have been through some really difficult situations. I just see it through to the end.

I mean that to be said, like, I say I'm not a quitter, and I have been through a divorce and I did quit my job. So there are times when I'm like, clearly I need to start seeking an exit strategy.

But like most situations, I just power through or just wait through. And I recognize that the difficult days are numbered. There's going to be. They're finite. It's. It's going to be like, I'm gonna last.

And also kind of like, what am I always ask myself too, if I'm tempted to just quit or give up or run, what am I running from? And what do I expect to find, you know, on the other side?

Host: 00:17:20

So, so in the midst of that, then. Then what were you. What would you say would be a key or two? That how you built that internal. What's the word I'm looking for? The internal resilience.

Was it just something you've always had or did some. Is that something you've had to say, boom. Like, what were that?

Kate Nash: 00:17:37

I think that's a gift of childhood trauma. So it leaves you with some childhood trauma leaves you with some wounds for sure, and some scars and some.

Some things that make you question your worth, but they're also kind of like. And this is maybe not even the healthiest thing, but you think, well, I'm not worth anything anyway, so I'm just going to stick it out.

So you end up sticking out some situations that you probably should leave. So. I have learned to endure difficult situations. Yay. Go me.

I think it just takes a lot of wisdom of saying, is it the right time to quit or should I just keep going? I can usually it from my experiences, I find it usually pretty easy to continue going.

I think I have a harder time saying it's time to exit the situation. If I had, I would have probably exited some of the situations a lot sooner than I did.

Host: 00:18:26

Right. And I think that's a lot of growth and wisdom in itself. So let's switch over to, like, what you're doing in content creation.

You know, seems like every day is, Is. Is everybody wants to make a course, things like that.

What is it, what is it like when you come to the table and you're making your courses, like, what causes your courses or, you know, what you do for people to really stand out in the midst of the sea of courses.

Kate Nash: 00:18:51

Yeah, I think experience says a lot. And I've created probably close to a thousand different courses. And what that gives me is a lot of.

A lot of situations that I've walked through previously where if somebody says, hey, I want to do this, and I'm like, oh, I had this situation that was similar to that. I have an activity that works really well, or they can say, I want to do this activity.

I'm like, well, I tried that a couple of times and it didn't work. And here's why it didn't work. Let's try this instead.

So sometimes that experience of having gone through so many different courses really, really does help. But I think that I. I think it's really kind of knowing what levers to push and kind of what.

Where the important decision points are when you're creating that course really helps. I'm also not rushing to get it done.

Like a lot of people say, get your course done in 72 hours or get your course done in a weekend, or I've seen all sorts of crazy things. Yes, you can get a course done that quickly. I don't know that would benefit you or anybody else. I think also differentiating when it comes to.

Sorry if I'm talking too much, but no, you're fine about courses and digital online courses. It's really good to differentiate it from educational spaces and corporate spaces because some things are similar.

People learn pretty much the same, but their motivations for taking your course are going to be different. And the way they evaluate or judge success is going to be different too.

So recognizing where digital courses are in that triangle between corporate training, which is different from education, or academic, you know, typical formal education, and then digital online courses is really helpful as well.

Host: 00:20:26

Yeah, that's awesome. So, and you don't have to apologize.

Like, listen, you're here for the listeners because these are the questions the listeners I think really want to hear and so definitely love, love your insight and things like that. So, all right, just so, so say I'm, I'm brand new to courses. I'm going to make my first course course and I've got 5,000 ideas.

What would you say like would be something that people would be like, all right, how do I hone in on an idea? And at what point would I, would I decide to work with somebody like you?

Kate Nash: 00:20:56

Okay, so that's a great question. When it comes to choosing your course topic that is so important, you want to think about two things.

One, we talk a lot in the marketing world about niching, so that's like having that exact audience that you're looking for. But when it comes to courses, you also want to do scoping. Like how big is the topic that you want to cover?

If you make a very narrow, hyper specific type topic, then you're going to have a little bit of work. If your topic gets larger, it's going to create a lot of work. So if you're niching that that's really going to be.

Niching and scoping are both important. The other thing is to find a topic that is something that you really love to do, something that is very high value for your clients.

They're like, oh my gosh, this is what I've been wanting to do. So a lot of people are like, I have some really good thoughts about mindfulness, so I want to do a journal.

But does your person, does your audience, would they see a mindfulness journal as a really high value? You know, like, is that something they would really want to pay money for? Because if it's not super high value, then that's probably not a good idea.

And then the third thing you want to look at is the effort is how much effort is required to create the course. And I have a, I have a free workshop that I do on, on choosing your course topic.

And it goes through kind of like the, the things I just said, the how specific the topic is, why you want to do something that's scoped as well as niched.

And I have a spreadsheet that helps you determine kind of like score several of your top topics to figure out which one would make the best choice for you to move forward with.

Host: 00:22:26

Awesome. And then to the listener out, we'll make sure to put that, those things in the show notes for you guys for easy access, things like that.

So then second part question to that was, at what point should I say, you know what, I need somebody to help me, let me hire Kate. At what point do you think in the process do I need to start thinking about that?

Kate Nash: 00:22:45

Yeah, that really is going to depend on. Of course, things like this always depend on a lot of factors, but it's really going to depend on a couple of things when you're creating a course.

And I think a course always works best when you have this. I have a three phase approach. The first is the ID8 where you're trying to figure out what does it look like, what am I trying to do?

I'm going to do my analysis, I'm going to call people, I'm going to talk to people and make sure that this is actually a good idea. The second phase is when you're leading it live so you can test it, check it, make sure it works, change things, experiment.

You know, I love to experiment, try things that might fail to see how they could work or make, maybe even make it better. I have put some pretty impressive and crazy things in my courses before and some of them have turned out incredibly well.

So if you can experiment instead of trying to feel like I have to make this perfect so I have to like withhold any interesting or whatever, just throw all the experiments in that live group where you're getting, you're able to guarantee results for people because you're working with them in, in real life and changing things as needed and then you can put it into the course. So if you have a hard time coming in with activities and stuff like that, I might be a good choice.

You know, during that ID 8, when you're ready to go to the group program, a live launch part, if you have a group program that's worked really well, but you're not sure how to transition it to an online digital course, a lot of people are really hesitant. They're like, what I do is magic. I don't know that I can bottle it up and put it into A recorded course. I guarantee you you can.

It's absolutely possible. It. I've yet to find anything that's so secret sauce that you can't at least automate through a digital online course, about 90% of it.

I mean, I mean, I'm kind of making an estimate here and I'm willing for people to prove me wrong.

But I think most of it you can put into digital online course as long as the production is there and the quality is there and you're anticipating your, your audience and you're not recording your video like a monologue, you're recording it like a dialogue. So they're involved in it. You can bottle up that magic sauce.

Host: 00:24:46

So I, I love that you said that. Like I have so much magic, I can't bottle it. Like I love because. And I laugh that at some point. But now, can I tell you what that is?

Kate Nash: 00:24:56

Can I tell you what that is? Have you seen, have you seen that diagram that has the, the unconscious competence? Yeah, you go from you.

Whenever you start something, you start it unconsciously incompetent. And then you go to consciously competent. And then you go to consciously competent. You can figure it out, but you have to think about it.

And then you go to unconsciously competent. The unconsciously competent people are the experts. They do it and it feels like magic to them because they're unconscious.

It's an unconscious process at that point.

You see, if you're a connoisseur of something, you can see something and go, that's good and that's not good, but you might not be able to articulate why. So that's where I will often come in and talk with somebody who's an expert and say, I just have this secret sauce.

And so I see what they do, I watch them, and then I break it down. Why is this good and why is this bad? We'll ask the questions and we can identify the ingredients in the secret sauce.

Host: 00:25:48

So I love that because.

And I may actually be calling you on that one because one of the things for me, one of the things for me, like I used to always say, well, I'm just a free spirit, which, that's my personality type. Right.

But I, I've really come to thing and through my wife's help and through overcoming some of those traumas, I'm accepting the parts of me that I didn't want to accept, which is like my zone of genius is understanding people. And it has been since I was a kid.

But I've always never thought about it that way until in recent months, and now it's kind of going to be more and more coming out that I'm accepting that. So you say that. And I'm actually going to probably, probably hit you up at some point to get that for that, because I do. I do it so effortlessly.

Yes, I do want to make a course out of it. So we're going to be talking, which leads into a great transition point of saying, how do people find you?

Kate Nash: 00:26:39

I'm on Facebook. I tried other platforms. I just can't do it. So you put. If you put my link, you know how to get me on Facebook. That is. That's the best way.

I like to have conversations with real people. So I don't have like a. A gatekeeper or anything like that. People can reach out, they can talk to me.

Host: 00:26:55

Awesome. And yes, to the listener.

We are going to put all the things in the show notes, how to find people, how to connect with them, even the free class that she offers for you guys, just, just as an added bonus. So that way you can connect on multiple different levels.

And if you want to write a course, do a course, make a course, I highly suggest that you contact Kate. If for anything, just have the conversation and see where you are.

With that being said, as we start closing down the show for today, you know, with every show, we do hashtag wisdombomb. And this is where we do a portable truth where the guest says one sentence to the. To say, here's a wisdom bomb for the audience to take with them.

Kate, what would be a wisdom bomb? You would leave.

Kate Nash: 00:27:35

I'm going to say, fall in love with the problem. And that is if you're. If you're trying to understand yourself or if you're trying to understand like a course and empathize with the people.

A lot of times we have this tendency to fall in love with the solution, and it sometimes blinds us to the nuances and all of the things that are causing that problem. And a lot of times what we try to do with a course or with ourselves is we try to attack it at the surface level.

But if we are empathically and compassionately looking at what is this problem and why does it exist and what are the nuances of why it's here? The more we seek to understand it, the more we love it.

And I'm not saying to love the discomfort or to love what happened to you, but it's a problem in your life or a problem in your course or the way that people are acting and behaving. Fall in love with that problem so that you understand it and you see all the nuances of it so that then you can deal with the root cause.

Host: 00:28:30

I love that. Thank you for sharing that.

And to the listener, if you've made it this far in the episode, do me a favor, just share this with somebody you think could you really use this episode, do all the things, whatever platform you're on, Whether it be YouTube or Facebook, hit the likes, hit the shares. Let's just get the message out and share and share with the world the expertise of the guest.

And Kate today is an expert in course creation and all the things that surround it. So let's make sure we do the thing and get her out there. And if you've really been listening, hit me up on the next episode.

Or if you have any questions, contact me and I'll. We'll, we'll, we'll chat.

With that being said, you have been listening to Grace in the Grind, where we equip, empower and encourage people to do all that God has called them to. I appreciate you being here and we'll see you on the next episode.

Jim Burgoon: 00:29:14

This has been Grace in the Grind. Whether you're a Christian leader looking for guidance or an entrepreneur seeking inspiration, it's Jim's passion to equip and encourage you.

Make sure to check out Jim's solo episodes where he shares practical leadership insights grounded in a biblical perspective. We hope you've enjoyed the show. If you did, make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon.

But in the meantime, find us on social media at Lead with Jim and you can also hit the website at www.leadwithjim.com. take care of yourself and we'll see you next time on Grace in the Grind.