Speaker A: 00:00:00

Welcome to Grace and the Grind, the podcast where we dive deep into the journeys of heart centered and purpose driven leaders and entrepreneurs.

Speaker A: 00:00:09

We're here to equip and encourage you on your journey.

Speaker A: 00:00:13

So let's get started and find the grace within the grind.

Speaker A: 00:00:17

This is Grace in the Grind.

Speaker A: 00:00:19

And now your host, Jim Burgoon.

Speaker B: 00:00:24

Welcome to Grace in the Grind.

Speaker B: 00:00:25

We're here to get the inspirational stories behind some of the most successful entrepreneurs.

Speaker B: 00:00:31

And today I have a brand new friend to the show.

Speaker B: 00:00:33

Angela Griffith, the Christian sexpert.

Speaker B: 00:00:36

So this ought to be a great conversation.

Speaker B: 00:00:39

Welcome to the show.

Speaker C: 00:00:40

Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: 00:00:41

So the first thing that we always do with our experts that are on the show is take 30 to 90 seconds and just tell the audience what you do.

Speaker C: 00:00:49

I'm Angela, the Christian sexpert.

Speaker C: 00:00:51

I am a sex and intimacy coach, influencer, public speaker, and I'm working on getting my book published.

Speaker B: 00:00:58

So.

Speaker B: 00:00:58

A book published.

Speaker B: 00:00:59

First, let's dive into the book published.

Speaker B: 00:01:01

What is the book?

Speaker C: 00:01:02

So I'm vacillating between two working titles.

Speaker C: 00:01:06

The first and most practical one is Go have good sex.

Speaker C: 00:01:10

That is my social media tagline, go have good sex.

Speaker C: 00:01:14

But as I was working on a proposal for the book, another title came to me which is Praying against my gag reflex conversations the church aunties never had with you.

Speaker C: 00:01:25

And.

Speaker C: 00:01:26

And that just makes my heart sparkle and I'm having trouble letting go of it.

Speaker B: 00:01:32

Write both books.

Speaker B: 00:01:33

There you go.

Speaker B: 00:01:34

So write both.

Speaker B: 00:01:35

I think that's an amazing.

Speaker B: 00:01:37

The old aunties.

Speaker B: 00:01:37

My goodness.

Speaker B: 00:01:38

All right, we're going to get in here and into our conversation.

Speaker B: 00:01:41

So what does like a Christian sex influencer like?

Speaker B: 00:01:46

Use the word influencer.

Speaker B: 00:01:47

And so we get this understanding of what influencer are.

Speaker B: 00:01:50

But here we are.

Speaker B: 00:01:52

Your faith is Christian and you're a sex influencer.

Speaker B: 00:01:55

What does that look like?

Speaker B: 00:01:56

Unpack that for me.

Speaker C: 00:01:57

It looks unexpected.

Speaker C: 00:01:59

And it took me a long time to embrace the influencer title because as a 40 something year old woman, I don't.

Speaker C: 00:02:09

First of all, I don't look like an influencer.

Speaker C: 00:02:12

I don't fit the mold.

Speaker C: 00:02:12

I'm not 20 years old, young, skinny, and making dancing tiktoks all day long.

Speaker C: 00:02:18

So it took me a long time to embrace the influencer title.

Speaker C: 00:02:21

But I have over 150,000 followers.

Speaker C: 00:02:25

And I got to a point where I'm like, you know what?

Speaker C: 00:02:28

This is part of your job.

Speaker C: 00:02:29

This is a big part of your job.

Speaker C: 00:02:31

This is how you.

Speaker C: 00:02:32

How I managed to do all the other things is because people find me on TikTok and Instagram and things.

Speaker C: 00:02:40

I was invited to speak at Woman Evolve with Sarah Jakes Roberts in front of 40,000 people.

Speaker C: 00:02:47

Wow.

Speaker C: 00:02:47

Because she found my TikTok.

Speaker C: 00:02:49

It was a journey to embrace the influencer title.

Speaker C: 00:02:52

But what I do for influencing is the whole reason that I started doing what I do.

Speaker C: 00:03:01

It started with TikTok because I see the damage of purity, culture and Hollywood and the damage that causes two Christian marriages.

Speaker C: 00:03:11

And I want to be part of the solution.

Speaker C: 00:03:13

So I provide Christian based, biblical based sex education and all of my content is surrounding that sort of thing.

Speaker C: 00:03:23

So it could be I keep all of the spicy things for my private Patreon community, which is where I teach sexual techniques.

Speaker C: 00:03:34

Because there's no other space that an evangelical Christian can go to learn how to give a blow job or to learn about choosing a vibrator.

Speaker C: 00:03:44

There's no other space where you can go and get science backed information in a biblically based, nudity free environment.

Speaker C: 00:03:52

And so that's what my Patreon does, is creates that science backed, biblical based, nudity free environment for very specific education.

Speaker C: 00:04:01

That you can't just go to your pastor and ask, hey, got any blowjob tips?

Speaker C: 00:04:07

So I created that space and then my public platforms are about building a better marriage, about mutual pleasure in sexuality.

Speaker C: 00:04:16

It's about what the Bible has to say about sex and marriage.

Speaker C: 00:04:20

So I cover a huge range of topics on my public platforms.

Speaker B: 00:04:25

Awesome.

Speaker B: 00:04:25

And just for the listener, we're going to make sure to have all of that in the show notes.

Speaker B: 00:04:29

So it'll make it easier for you to find, connect, check out the Patreon, all of that.

Speaker B: 00:04:33

So make sure you're checking the show notes after the show because all the links will be there.

Speaker B: 00:04:38

All right, so with that being said, you just had a whole lot of stuff and there's a whole lot of questions that now I now have.

Speaker B: 00:04:45

Okay.

Speaker B: 00:04:46

And I think one of the most important questions in this whole conversation is where did you developed, where did you develop the mindset that an influencer had to be a 20 something year old dancing person on Tick Tock?

Speaker B: 00:05:00

Where did that come from?

Speaker C: 00:05:02

Ask any 40 year old woman who looks like a librarian, a single librarian with 17 cats at home, and she's going to tell you, no, I'm not an influencer.

Speaker C: 00:05:12

Like influencers are culturally young.

Speaker C: 00:05:15

Charlie D'Amelio.

Speaker C: 00:05:16

I don't know.

Speaker C: 00:05:18

I'm such a.

Speaker C: 00:05:18

I'm such a bad influencer.

Speaker C: 00:05:20

I don't know how to say her name.

Speaker C: 00:05:21

But that is the stereotype of what an influencer is.

Speaker C: 00:05:24

And for people of my generation, it influencer as a profession is definitely side eyed.

Speaker C: 00:05:32

If I say, if I call myself an influencer to people of my generation because I'm 44 and if I say that to someone who's 44 or older, I'm getting side eye, I'm getting go get a real job thing.

Speaker C: 00:05:46

And like y'all have no idea how much work it is to create content.

Speaker C: 00:05:52

It is a real job.

Speaker B: 00:05:54

Yes.

Speaker B: 00:05:55

And I just actually did a live on that too.

Speaker B: 00:05:58

There's some questions I'm going to dive in here because I'm also, I'm about to be 47, so I am also said generation.

Speaker B: 00:06:04

So walk me through embracing that because you've got to be dealing with imposter syndrome, some self doubt.

Speaker B: 00:06:12

Walk me through embracing that.

Speaker C: 00:06:14

So I honestly, in a lot of ways I don't deal with imposter syndrome because I, I know what I'm doing.

Speaker C: 00:06:22

I know I have degrees in religion and psychology.

Speaker C: 00:06:26

I have been studying human sexuality for over 20 years.

Speaker C: 00:06:29

I know what I'm doing.

Speaker C: 00:06:31

I know that I can help you have a better sex life and a better marriage.

Speaker C: 00:06:35

I don't care how good your sex life or your marriage is.

Speaker C: 00:06:37

I know I can help it be better because I know what I'm doing.

Speaker C: 00:06:40

I know my techniques work.

Speaker C: 00:06:42

I know my advice is solid.

Speaker C: 00:06:43

I know the scriptures like people, I make people really angry when I say things like the Bible talks about oral sex and they get into my comment section and they're like, you've clearly never read the Bible.

Speaker C: 00:06:57

That's out of me.

Speaker C: 00:06:58

Blah, blah, blah.

Speaker C: 00:06:59

I'm like, no, it's not, it's no.

Speaker C: 00:07:02

First of all, bold of you to think that I haven't read my Bible since this is my actual literal job.

Speaker B: 00:07:08

Right?

Speaker C: 00:07:09

Research these things and create content about it.

Speaker C: 00:07:12

I don't put anything out on my public socials that I am not a thousand percent convinced of.

Speaker C: 00:07:17

The statistics, the history, the context.

Speaker C: 00:07:20

And I can give you all the reasons that I'm right.

Speaker C: 00:07:22

I know what I'm doing.

Speaker B: 00:07:23

I love this.

Speaker B: 00:07:24

I love your confidence.

Speaker B: 00:07:26

So then how did you embrace it?

Speaker B: 00:07:27

What were the struggles to embrace it?

Speaker B: 00:07:29

Walk me through some of that.

Speaker C: 00:07:31

Some of it was being, honestly, some of it was being on Tik Tok and this sound.

Speaker C: 00:07:37

The people accuse me all the time of like hating men.

Speaker C: 00:07:40

And I'm like, no, I don't hate men.

Speaker C: 00:07:41

I think that society and evangelical culture sells men short and men are so much better than what evangelical culture wants to give them credit for.

Speaker C: 00:07:52

But just today popped up in my memories, a video where I did.

Speaker C: 00:07:57

Where I said I embraced my full sexuality to have this amazing sex life.

Speaker C: 00:08:01

And the audio over that text was, if a man did it, why can't I?

Speaker C: 00:08:06

And part of it was like the cultural phenomenon of that sort of messaging on social media of, if a boy can do it, so can I.

Speaker C: 00:08:15

If a man can have this much audacity, so can I.

Speaker C: 00:08:19

And really, that sort of.

Speaker C: 00:08:20

But also, God created me to have a challenger sort of personality.

Speaker C: 00:08:25

I have never.

Speaker C: 00:08:27

I.

Speaker C: 00:08:28

If you want someone to calm you down and talk you out of fighting, I'm not the one, don't call me, because I will show up with the matches and burn everything to the ground.

Speaker B: 00:08:38

I love it, I love it, I love it.

Speaker C: 00:08:41

That is a hundred percent my personality, and it always has been.

Speaker C: 00:08:45

And so part of it was the cultural phenomenon of the messaging on social media, of I.

Speaker C: 00:08:51

I have worked just as hard as any man in my field.

Speaker C: 00:08:54

I deserve these things because I.

Speaker C: 00:08:58

I have put in the work and I'm obsessed.

Speaker C: 00:09:01

I've been obsessed lately with Alona Mar.

Speaker C: 00:09:04

And she had an interview a couple of weeks ago where this interviewer asked her, how do you deal with imposter syndrome?

Speaker C: 00:09:11

And she's, I don't.

Speaker B: 00:09:12

I love it.

Speaker C: 00:09:13

Worked for everything that I've got.

Speaker C: 00:09:15

I deserve everything that I've got.

Speaker C: 00:09:17

And I'm like, so much of the messaging that I put out on my socials is fighting the status quo of what has always been.

Speaker C: 00:09:27

My official speaker bio says, a challenger of what has always been.

Speaker C: 00:09:32

And this is part of it, is that evangelical women in particular are not supposed to be strong.

Speaker C: 00:09:38

We're not supposed to be bold.

Speaker C: 00:09:40

We are not supposed to be outspoken.

Speaker C: 00:09:42

We are supposed to be meek and quiet and submissive and not get angry and not challenge anyone.

Speaker C: 00:09:48

And if someone tells us that we're wrong, we're supposed to really think about it.

Speaker C: 00:09:52

And are they right?

Speaker C: 00:09:53

Am I wrong?

Speaker C: 00:09:54

Do they have a point?

Speaker C: 00:09:56

That's not what I see in the Bible, because what I see in the Bible says, the Holy Spirit will come and empower you to do great works in my name.

Speaker B: 00:10:07

Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:10:07

And that doesn't say, but only if you have a penis.

Speaker B: 00:10:10

I love that.

Speaker B: 00:10:11

Man.

Speaker B: 00:10:12

This is so rich.

Speaker B: 00:10:13

This is amazing.

Speaker B: 00:10:14

And I have two daughters, so I.

Speaker B: 00:10:16

We've taught them to be bold.

Speaker B: 00:10:18

And I love that you have this message.

Speaker B: 00:10:20

And so this, now, this comes back into the pushback.

Speaker B: 00:10:24

So you're in a.

Speaker B: 00:10:24

You're in a.

Speaker B: 00:10:25

An area that has a lot of stigma, whether it be from the old Timey aunties like you mentioned earlier or the, the new age stuff, all kind of clashing.

Speaker B: 00:10:34

And now you're getting pushback.

Speaker B: 00:10:37

So first and foremost, walk me through how you got interested or how you got into the whole sex therapist thing.

Speaker B: 00:10:44

And then after that we're going to deal with the pushback.

Speaker B: 00:10:46

So let's talk about the journey into it first.

Speaker C: 00:10:49

So a million years ago when I was in college, good girls from small towns didn't go to school to become sex coaches.

Speaker C: 00:10:55

Good girls from small towns went to school to get their Mrs.

Speaker C: 00:10:58

Degree.

Speaker C: 00:10:58

And being a good girl from a small town, I graduated with my degree in religion and psychology and a few weeks later got the Mrs.

Speaker C: 00:11:05

By getting married.

Speaker C: 00:11:06

And I remained fascinated with human sexuality, studied everything I could get my hands on and also remain fascinated with theology, studied everything I could get my hands on.

Speaker C: 00:11:17

Eventually we got pregnant.

Speaker C: 00:11:19

Later in life, I joined an international online women's ministry and I would contribute to the conversations about marriage and sex.

Speaker C: 00:11:27

And I was after a while getting brought into those conversations specifically about marriage and sex.

Speaker C: 00:11:33

I was eventually asked to join the leadership team for the ministry.

Speaker C: 00:11:36

And we were talking and I was like, you know what?

Speaker C: 00:11:38

I want to do this full time when my son doesn't need me so much anymore.

Speaker C: 00:11:42

I want to help women have better sex.

Speaker C: 00:11:44

Because God tells us that he wants abundance for us in all areas of our life and that includes our sex life.

Speaker C: 00:11:49

And it's not just men that deserve abundant sex lives.

Speaker C: 00:11:52

Women deserve to enjoy sex as much as men.

Speaker C: 00:11:55

And I want to be part of the solution.

Speaker C: 00:11:56

And that was the end of the conversation a couple months later when a sex had come up again and somebody had tagged me as paging Angela, the group sexpert.

Speaker C: 00:12:05

And we were, the leaders were laughing about that privately.

Speaker C: 00:12:09

And they were like, you know, that should be your tick tock handle is the Christian sexpert.

Speaker C: 00:12:12

And I was like, yeah, sure, whatever.

Speaker C: 00:12:14

But I ran over and I reserved the handle because I was like, maybe I'll do something with this someday.

Speaker C: 00:12:18

And guy laughed at me and he's that's not later thing.

Speaker C: 00:12:21

This is a now thing.

Speaker C: 00:12:22

This is you're gonna do this now.

Speaker C: 00:12:24

And the same leader was like to really make it on TikTok you have to post four times a day.

Speaker C: 00:12:30

I was like excuse me, that's aggressive.

Speaker C: 00:12:32

But on I'm also have raging adhd.

Speaker C: 00:12:36

And so my brain was like, why not?

Speaker C: 00:12:39

So I started posting four times a day.

Speaker C: 00:12:42

I started my account in late January.

Speaker C: 00:12:44

By Easter, I gone viral with a video at over 5 million views.

Speaker C: 00:12:47

And the whole time God's going, okay, we're gonna do this next thing.

Speaker C: 00:12:52

Okay, here's the next step.

Speaker C: 00:12:54

So I the ADHD hyper fixation never wore off.

Speaker C: 00:12:58

And God, the whole time is, okay, you're gonna start coaching.

Speaker C: 00:13:01

Okay, you're gonna start developing products to help intimacy that you're going to public digital downloads that you can publish on your website.

Speaker C: 00:13:09

Last, last winter, I got the invite for the conference in front of 40, 000 women.

Speaker C: 00:13:14

I was like, okay, this is the next step.

Speaker C: 00:13:16

And then immediately after that, God said, okay, start writing your book because you're going to be po.

Speaker C: 00:13:21

You're after the conference, you're going to need a manuscript started.

Speaker C: 00:13:24

So I started writing.

Speaker C: 00:13:26

Just yesterday I got a book up online.

Speaker C: 00:13:30

It's like a self published journal full of sex prompts.

Speaker C: 00:13:33

It's over a hundred sex journal prompts for you to share with your spouse.

Speaker C: 00:13:39

So the way that it works is it has a prompt on a page, you choose a page, you write your response, you give it to your spouse, they get the opportunity to read your response and answer it, respond with their own thoughts, ask questions.

Speaker C: 00:13:53

And it's designed to help couples have a deeper sexual intimacy in that area of their lives.

Speaker C: 00:13:59

And every step of the way, it's just been me going, okay, God, I don't know how this is going to work out, but sure, let's try it and see what happens, right?

Speaker C: 00:14:09

What's the worst that can happen?

Speaker C: 00:14:10

It doesn't sell.

Speaker C: 00:14:11

Oh, we'll do the next thing.

Speaker B: 00:14:13

I love that.

Speaker B: 00:14:13

I love that about you and I love the confidence that comes off you like this.

Speaker B: 00:14:16

It's refreshing.

Speaker B: 00:14:18

It's very refreshing.

Speaker B: 00:14:19

And so you're building all this stuff.

Speaker B: 00:14:22

Things are happening.

Speaker B: 00:14:23

God's leading you step by step.

Speaker B: 00:14:25

Let's move into the pushback because I'm sure there was a bunch.

Speaker C: 00:14:29

So much.

Speaker C: 00:14:30

I deeply anger a lot of men.

Speaker C: 00:14:33

Oh, you anger men more than women.

Speaker C: 00:14:36

Some women, but men are definitely more vocal about it.

Speaker C: 00:14:40

Let's go back to the audacity of a man.

Speaker C: 00:14:43

So if you are listening to this podcast and you aren't watching the video, I am a fat, short woman who, who looks like a librarian with 17 cats and no husband.

Speaker C: 00:14:53

I have a mirror.

Speaker C: 00:14:54

I know what I look like, and that's okay.

Speaker C: 00:14:57

I don't look like someone who should have any expertise in sex, let alone be able to teach you how to do kinky sex, but I can.

Speaker C: 00:15:07

And so people get really upset when they hear me talking about sex education, particularly when I start talking about mutual pleasure.

Speaker C: 00:15:17

When I talk about sex isn't just for men.

Speaker C: 00:15:20

Women are just as sexual as men.

Speaker C: 00:15:23

We are just socialized and conditioned to not be allowed to express our sexuality in the same way that men are.

Speaker C: 00:15:29

And men get so angry, and they're like, you just hate men and you don't want.

Speaker C: 00:15:34

You're not having any sex, so you don't want anybody else having any sex either.

Speaker C: 00:15:38

And I get all of these hateful comments all the time on my socials.

Speaker C: 00:15:43

And depending on the severity or what they're saying, I may respond or I may delete the comment.

Speaker C: 00:15:53

I tend to delete comments that are just horrifically attacking my appearance.

Speaker C: 00:15:58

I have a hard line on anyone that attacks my husband.

Speaker C: 00:16:01

So if you make a comment about my husband, I am the one who has chosen this for my profession.

Speaker C: 00:16:08

My husband does not actively choose to be attacked online, and that's a hard boundary for me.

Speaker C: 00:16:15

So if anybody makes a comment about disparaging my husband in any way, that's immediately going to get deleted because you don't have he.

Speaker C: 00:16:22

That isn't his choice.

Speaker C: 00:16:24

I understand that when I'm choosing to put my image out online that I am opening myself up for hateful comments about my body.

Speaker C: 00:16:32

And that's.

Speaker C: 00:16:33

I accept that's the reality.

Speaker C: 00:16:35

That doesn't mean I have to tolerate them.

Speaker C: 00:16:36

I accept that's the reality.

Speaker C: 00:16:38

And so that's why I delete any comments related to my husband.

Speaker C: 00:16:41

But some of the comments I respond to because not because I think I'm going to change this particular man's mind with any sort of education that I can provide.

Speaker C: 00:16:53

I'm putting it out there because I hope that his wife sees it and knows that she deserves better, that she deserves a marriage in which she does not have to have sex to keep him from having a temper tantrum, to know that she deserves a marriage where she can.

Speaker C: 00:17:09

She and her children are safe from the whims of a man addicted to orgasms.

Speaker C: 00:17:15

And that's why I respond to angry comments.

Speaker C: 00:17:19

But also there is the fact that the algorithm doesn't care whether they're commenting in support or disagreement.

Speaker B: 00:17:27

Correct.

Speaker C: 00:17:27

The algorithm just sees engagement.

Speaker C: 00:17:29

And so you want to fight me for 50 comments in my comment section, you go for it because you're winning.

Speaker C: 00:17:37

Yeah, I'm winning.

Speaker C: 00:17:38

I'm getting paid with every comment you leave.

Speaker C: 00:17:42

So my.

Speaker C: 00:17:43

My engagement rates and my payment just go up the more angry comments I get.

Speaker C: 00:17:47

So you want to fight, go for it.

Speaker C: 00:17:49

I don't care.

Speaker B: 00:17:51

I love that.

Speaker B: 00:17:51

And definitely you are living out your challenge, your Personality.

Speaker B: 00:17:55

I love it.

Speaker B: 00:17:56

So I.

Speaker B: 00:17:57

This brings up two questions, one about the men and one about the women.

Speaker B: 00:18:00

So the man question, what do you feel is the percentage?

Speaker B: 00:18:04

Do you think that the people, the men who are angry is a lower percentage compared to the ones that may not say anything?

Speaker B: 00:18:09

Or is this most men?

Speaker B: 00:18:11

What does that look like?

Speaker C: 00:18:12

I think that it's indicative of a lot of the things that we see in society is might makes right.

Speaker C: 00:18:20

So it's the ones that are the loudest that people think are the truest or whatever.

Speaker C: 00:18:26

And I don't think that this is all men.

Speaker C: 00:18:28

In fact, I have a very loyal following of a small group of men who are very supportive of my work.

Speaker C: 00:18:35

Multiple.

Speaker C: 00:18:36

I have multiple mutual relationships with therapists, sex addiction therapists who are men who support my work every day.

Speaker C: 00:18:46

But the thing is, and because my message is countercultural to what you're going to see in any sort of evangelical marriage book, because you pick up any mainstream evangelical marriage book, it's men need sex, women need emotional connection, men need sex.

Speaker C: 00:19:02

And I'm like, that's straight trash.

Speaker C: 00:19:03

That is.

Speaker C: 00:19:04

There's no scientific or biblical backing for that.

Speaker C: 00:19:07

We have a society of modern American men who have been conditioned to wrap their entire identity up in their sexual performance.

Speaker C: 00:19:15

And they don't have any sort of emotional intelligence education.

Speaker C: 00:19:19

And so they think that the only way that they can connect with their spouse is through their penis.

Speaker C: 00:19:24

And that threatens the status quo of so many marriages because that's expecting the man to be better, that's expecting the man to grow.

Speaker C: 00:19:35

And so it makes sense that I'm going to anger those men because that means he's going to suddenly have to start working for what was freely on offer.

Speaker C: 00:19:42

They don't want to do that.

Speaker C: 00:19:43

Nobody wants to have the status quo of their life threatened when they've already got it on easy street.

Speaker C: 00:19:50

So it makes sense.

Speaker C: 00:19:51

I don't think that it's all men.

Speaker C: 00:19:52

I don't even think it's most men.

Speaker C: 00:19:54

I think it's men who feel personally threatened by my messaging.

Speaker C: 00:20:00

So that's good.

Speaker C: 00:20:02

That and good.

Speaker C: 00:20:04

Please engage with me.

Speaker C: 00:20:05

Because if you're engaging with me, then maybe your wife will see my content and she'll learn something.

Speaker B: 00:20:10

I love that.

Speaker B: 00:20:11

So we're saying like the men who are more in that alpha male, dictator, manipulative role.

Speaker C: 00:20:16

Yes.

Speaker B: 00:20:17

Then this brings the conversation to the women, because now I'm curious what kind of pushback you get from them.

Speaker B: 00:20:23

Because I can see the pushback from the women, from the men.

Speaker B: 00:20:25

And you've even said it like, they're attacking your appearance.

Speaker B: 00:20:28

They're attacking different things like that.

Speaker B: 00:20:30

But help me understand, what are the pushback from the women you're getting?

Speaker C: 00:20:33

So if I'm receiving pushback from women, it is usually women who have swallowed the patriarchy whole and like, really believe that sort of messaging for themselves as well.

Speaker C: 00:20:46

And it makes sense, because if a woman is upset by the messaging of mutual pleasure in her marriage, then she has to take a hard look at her marriage and think really hard about what she has been subjecting herself to for many years and what she has possibly taught her children and what her daughter might be subjecting herself to in her own marriage.

Speaker C: 00:21:07

And that is a hard thing to look at, to know that maybe I got this wrong all these years and I could have had better.

Speaker B: 00:21:16

That's a huge pill to swallow.

Speaker B: 00:21:18

So then, what are some of the comments?

Speaker B: 00:21:19

What do they tend to attack you?

Speaker B: 00:21:21

Is it just, no, you're wrong, or is it.

Speaker B: 00:21:23

Do they attack the way you look?

Speaker B: 00:21:24

What does that look like?

Speaker C: 00:21:26

It's rare that a woman attacks the way that I look.

Speaker B: 00:21:29

Okay?

Speaker C: 00:21:30

It's happened.

Speaker C: 00:21:31

In fact, the only one time I can think of it, I made a response video showing my entire body dancing very badly because I'm completely uncoordinated and.

Speaker B: 00:21:42

Made the point that I am too.

Speaker C: 00:21:44

Made the point that I'm fat.

Speaker C: 00:21:45

I know that I'm fat, but that doesn't make me wrong.

Speaker C: 00:21:48

Here's the attention that you were looking for with your comment.

Speaker C: 00:21:52

So the comments that I usually get from women are, the Bible says you can't deprive each other.

Speaker C: 00:21:58

And we need to look at that verse, first of all, in its proper historical and cultural context.

Speaker B: 00:22:04

Right?

Speaker C: 00:22:04

Because that verse has been taken out of its context and tried to.

Speaker C: 00:22:08

People want to shove that into a modern American context.

Speaker C: 00:22:11

And that verse is weaponized primarily against women to say that women can never say no to their husbands.

Speaker C: 00:22:17

Or you can say no, but not too often, first of all.

Speaker C: 00:22:20

Or you can say no, but you have to have a good reason.

Speaker C: 00:22:23

Who decides how much is too often and who decides what a good reason is?

Speaker B: 00:22:26

First of all, yeah, definitely.

Speaker C: 00:22:29

Second of all, that verse was written to a people who were living wildly different lives than we as modern Americans are living.

Speaker C: 00:22:39

They were.

Speaker C: 00:22:40

They were worshiping false gods.

Speaker C: 00:22:42

And one of the gods in Corinth demanded celibacy as a form of worship.

Speaker C: 00:22:49

And when Poe was writing to them, he we've got this congregation of new believers because, remember, everybody was a new believer then.

Speaker C: 00:22:57

There was no esteem established Church fathers, everybody was a new follower of Jesus.

Speaker C: 00:23:02

All we had was Jewish tradition to fall back on.

Speaker C: 00:23:05

We didn't have: 2000

Speaker C: 00:23:09

So we've got these new believers that have been using celibacy as a form of worship to their false gods.

Speaker C: 00:23:14

They're meeting Jesus, getting saved.

Speaker C: 00:23:15

We love to see it.

Speaker C: 00:23:16

But now they think in order to worship a God, I have to be celibate.

Speaker C: 00:23:22

Okay, I'll be celibate as worship.

Speaker C: 00:23:25

Because that's what they understood as a form of worship.

Speaker C: 00:23:28

And Paul was saying, Jesus doesn't want your celibacy.

Speaker C: 00:23:31

There's no reason for you to be celibate as a form of worship.

Speaker C: 00:23:34

If you're married, have sex because it's good.

Speaker C: 00:23:38

Yeah, it was not saying.

Speaker C: 00:23:40

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker C: 00:23:41

It was not saying that you can't ever say no.

Speaker C: 00:23:43

It was literally saying that sex is supposed to be mutually pleasurable and if it's not mutually pleasurable, you shouldn't be doing it.

Speaker C: 00:23:51

Yeah, but we have so many pastors.

Speaker C: 00:23:54

I have, I get sent almost weekly.

Speaker C: 00:23:57

Pastors in American pulpits today preaching a gospel of obligation sex, that it is sacrificial love to have sex even if you don't want to be having sex.

Speaker C: 00:24:09

And there is zero model for that in the Bible because these men are taking that verse out of context and creating entire sermons around it and telling the women in their congregations that you need to be having bad sex that you don't want because that's what makes God happy.

Speaker B: 00:24:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: 00:24:24

Sermons every week.

Speaker C: 00:24:25

And when I'm getting pushback, it's primarily the Bible says you can't deprive each other.

Speaker C: 00:24:31

And I'm saying that's not it.

Speaker C: 00:24:32

That's not what it's saying.

Speaker B: 00:24:34

So I think that's a moment just for the listener.

Speaker B: 00:24:36

I do want to say this is a great opportunity for the listener to challenge long held beliefs.

Speaker B: 00:24:41

And ask yourself a really important question, what is traditional and what is biblical?

Speaker B: 00:24:46

Because they oftentimes don't go together.

Speaker B: 00:24:48

And so we've had 2,000 years of tradition that some faiths will say is greater than the actual what the Bible says.

Speaker B: 00:24:56

So make sure you're challenging yourself and going back like the Bereans.

Speaker B: 00:24:59

It said the Bereans were seen as a noble because they went back and challenged Paul.

Speaker B: 00:25:03

So to you, the listener, make sure you go back and challenge some long held beliefs and see what the Bible actually says about that.

Speaker B: 00:25:09

So I wanted to take a moment and share that with them because I'm loving this conversation and I'm absolutely so grateful for you to be on because like, even at the time, you know, the.

Speaker B: 00:25:19

As a former pastor, as a former thing, I'm very big because I was saved out of witchcraft.

Speaker B: 00:25:23

So I didn't come in, grow up into the church.

Speaker B: 00:25:25

So I actually had a different mindset reading scripture.

Speaker B: 00:25:28

And a lot of what was written in Ephesians and things like that was because the church, not the church, but the local religions were worshiping sex through going in, hiring prostitutes.

Speaker B: 00:25:39

So a lot of what in the Bible is written in counteraction to the local practices.

Speaker B: 00:25:45

So with that all being said, okay, so we're now in a modern day and you're finding these challenges where you've got the traditions versus not understanding what the Bible actually says and why it was written to counteract those false teachings.

Speaker B: 00:25:59

What are some, I think you said it earlier, emotional intelligence.

Speaker B: 00:26:02

What are some things to build the emotional intelligence in the relationship to make sure that we get more into a biblical alignment as opposed to a traditional alignment?

Speaker C: 00:26:11

That's a really big question.

Speaker C: 00:26:13

That could be like a whole series.

Speaker B: 00:26:14

By itself, really could.

Speaker B: 00:26:16

Let's, let's give a couple bullet points.

Speaker B: 00:26:18

Let's go for that.

Speaker C: 00:26:20

Let's start with therapy.

Speaker C: 00:26:21

The answer nobody wants to hear, but everybody needs therapy.

Speaker C: 00:26:24

If you realize that you have been looking to sex to create and maintain the intimacy in your marriage.

Speaker C: 00:26:33

If you need to have sex in order to feel emotionally connected to your spouse, because it's not just.

Speaker C: 00:26:39

There are some women who fall into this trap as well, please get therapy, because that is telling me that at some point there was a breakdown and you realize that the chemicals produced during sex feel really good and they help you to numb out maybe some hard things in your life.

Speaker C: 00:26:58

And so you may well need coping tools, healthy coping tools to deal with hard things in your life that don't involve the use of someone else's body.

Speaker C: 00:27:07

So that's the first one.

Speaker C: 00:27:09

And then let's say you're like.

Speaker C: 00:27:11

That feels drastic.

Speaker C: 00:27:11

I don't think that our marriage is.

Speaker C: 00:27:13

Is that serious, but I feel like we could maybe just use a little direction to move towards a more balanced approach.

Speaker C: 00:27:21

There's actually 13 different types of intimacy that we can experience in marriage, and sex is only one of them.

Speaker C: 00:27:26

And so I think it's really healthy if listeners understand that there's multiple forms of intimacy.

Speaker C: 00:27:32

And sex is supposed to be the celebration of intimacy that you've already established before you've ever reached the bedroom.

Speaker C: 00:27:39

And when you frame it that way and when you start intentionally investing into the other intimacies, sex starts to flow naturally because you have something to celebrate.

Speaker C: 00:27:49

And on my website, I have a product called the 31 days of intimacy.

Speaker C: 00:27:54

It walks you through each of the different intimacies in very practical ways.

Speaker C: 00:27:58

But you can also go on my social media accounts and search hashtag 13Intimacies.13 search hashtag 13Types of intimacy to see the educational videos where I talk about these things.

Speaker C: 00:28:12

It's not.

Speaker C: 00:28:13

I.

Speaker C: 00:28:14

This is not just like a sales pitch because I do put out a lot of content about the different types of intimacy.

Speaker B: 00:28:20

So to the listener, just to let you know, just a reminder, everything will be in the show notes for you to just click on and shoot over to where these things are located.

Speaker B: 00:28:28

Because we want to make things easy for you to connect with our guests, because our guests have spent a lot of time building their expertise.

Speaker B: 00:28:35

And for you, we want to make sure it becomes so easy to be able to connect with them.

Speaker B: 00:28:39

And you should be connecting with Angela because this is powerful stuff.

Speaker B: 00:28:43

All right, this brings up another interesting question, and I'm enjoying this conversation a lot.

Speaker B: 00:28:47

So rich with so much stuff.

Speaker B: 00:28:49

How do you tell if sex in your marriage has become an idol?

Speaker C: 00:28:53

Oh, my gosh.

Speaker C: 00:28:54

That's a.

Speaker C: 00:28:55

Another huge question.

Speaker B: 00:28:56

I'm big on huge questions.

Speaker C: 00:28:57

Apparently you are.

Speaker C: 00:29:00

I'm not sure that I've ever had that question phrase that way to me either.

Speaker C: 00:29:03

So that's really interesting.

Speaker C: 00:29:05

I would say one of the first things is, do you feel entitled to sex?

Speaker C: 00:29:10

Do you feel like you are owed sex?

Speaker C: 00:29:13

Do you have an emotional reaction if your spouse says, I'm not interested tonight?

Speaker C: 00:29:18

And when I say emotional reaction, people get really upset because they're like, they're rejecting me.

Speaker C: 00:29:23

I should be upset, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker C: 00:29:24

I'm like, okay, first of all, your spouse not being interested in sex does not automatically equate a personal rejection.

Speaker C: 00:29:30

As you have a person.

Speaker C: 00:29:32

That's not what that means.

Speaker C: 00:29:34

It means that they had a hard day at work.

Speaker C: 00:29:36

It means that she's been home with three puking kids all day, and there is nothing in the world that's going to make her feel sexy after being puked on for 12 hours.

Speaker B: 00:29:43

Sure.

Speaker C: 00:29:44

That's not a personal rejection of you as a person.

Speaker C: 00:29:47

Right.

Speaker C: 00:29:48

So if you have a lot of big feelings that you accept, expect your spouse to resolve for you when they say no to sex.

Speaker C: 00:29:58

You probably have made sex into an idol and you might have a pornified mindset.

Speaker C: 00:30:03

And if you are curious to learn about a pornified mindset, I encourage you to look up Dr.

Speaker C: 00:30:09

Andrew J.

Speaker C: 00:30:10

Bauman's work.

Speaker C: 00:30:11

He does a lot of work with men and pornified mindsets in particular.

Speaker C: 00:30:16

But a pornified mindset turns what is supposed to be a mutually pleasurable spiritual experience between a married couple into a commodified something for personal consumption and personal pleasure.

Speaker C: 00:30:29

It is turning sex into.

Speaker C: 00:30:32

It's not about celebrating intimacy.

Speaker C: 00:30:34

It's about, I want to feel good, I want to get off.

Speaker C: 00:30:39

And you as my spouse are the legal way for me to do that.

Speaker C: 00:30:45

So you owe this to me.

Speaker B: 00:30:47

That's good.

Speaker B: 00:30:48

So then here's the thing.

Speaker B: 00:30:49

Here's another question.

Speaker B: 00:30:49

This is.

Speaker B: 00:30:50

This conversation has been so good.

Speaker B: 00:30:51

Like, I'm.

Speaker B: 00:30:51

I know we're ready to almost land the plane on this particular episode, and I am 100 going to have you back on a future episode as well, if you're willing to come back, because this has been very, absolutely powerful, and it's been very empowering.

Speaker B: 00:31:03

And I hope you, as the listener gets this as well.

Speaker B: 00:31:06

So this kind of runs down into a question I had.

Speaker B: 00:31:10

And.

Speaker B: 00:31:11

And at first I was like, wait, what was the question I was asking?

Speaker B: 00:31:13

But then I was like, oh, yeah, that's the question.

Speaker B: 00:31:16

What happened?

Speaker B: 00:31:17

Would.

Speaker B: 00:31:17

Would you read Dr.

Speaker B: 00:31:18

Andrew Baum about the pornified mind, which I'm fascinated about that.

Speaker B: 00:31:23

Have you found.

Speaker B: 00:31:23

And I know we dealt with men, but have you found that some women have the same type of mindset?

Speaker C: 00:31:28

Absolutely.

Speaker C: 00:31:29

Absolutely.

Speaker C: 00:31:30

Women using pornography is not talked about nearly enough in evangelical culture because it goes back to this idea that sex is for men, and women don't enjoy sex as much as men do.

Speaker C: 00:31:43

And it pres.

Speaker C: 00:31:45

It often presents differently in women.

Speaker C: 00:31:50

This is when I start to piss off the women.

Speaker C: 00:31:52

We need to talk about the spicy books.

Speaker B: 00:31:54

Okay.

Speaker C: 00:31:55

Because that's.

Speaker B: 00:31:56

Yes, talk about it.

Speaker B: 00:31:57

Let's go.

Speaker B: 00:31:57

Let's hear this.

Speaker C: 00:31:58

That.

Speaker C: 00:31:59

That is.

Speaker C: 00:32:00

That's stereotypical pornography for women is the spicy books.

Speaker C: 00:32:04

And I have a lot of women who ask me, is it a sin to read a spicy book?

Speaker C: 00:32:10

And I'm like, first of all, like, why are you.

Speaker C: 00:32:12

Why.

Speaker C: 00:32:12

Why do you want to read that?

Speaker C: 00:32:14

And a lot of women are telling me we're.

Speaker C: 00:32:17

We're in a season.

Speaker C: 00:32:17

We have a lot of young kids.

Speaker C: 00:32:19

I don't.

Speaker C: 00:32:19

It's really hard for me to have an orgasm.

Speaker C: 00:32:22

We don't have a lot of time.

Speaker C: 00:32:24

And so reading this turns me on so that we don't have to take as much time in bed.

Speaker C: 00:32:29

And, like, you are circumventing the real authentic work of intimacy in your marriage.

Speaker C: 00:32:36

You are turning to Something and somebody else for what is meant to be your and your husband's job.

Speaker C: 00:32:43

I understand not having a lot of time.

Speaker C: 00:32:47

We co slept with our son for the first seven years of his life.

Speaker C: 00:32:52

Like he would not get out of our bed.

Speaker C: 00:32:54

He has a spicy brain.

Speaker C: 00:32:56

It wasn't a matter of discipline, it was a matter of survival.

Speaker C: 00:32:58

And we had to be creative with when.

Speaker C: 00:33:02

And my husband for a season when my son was 3, was an over the road truck driver.

Speaker C: 00:33:08

He would be gone for three weeks at a time.

Speaker C: 00:33:10

I wouldn't see him, he'd be home for three days.

Speaker C: 00:33:12

Then he'd be gone for another month and I wouldn't see him.

Speaker C: 00:33:15

And so if we were gonna have sex, like there was a lot of pressure to have sex in those three days that he was home.

Speaker C: 00:33:22

And we know that obligation kills desire.

Speaker C: 00:33:24

So that further complicates things.

Speaker C: 00:33:26

And so that spicy books are a way that women turn sex into a commodity for consumption is a quick fix to a problem that needs addressed by both.

Speaker C: 00:33:38

By both spouses.

Speaker C: 00:33:40

And rather than investing the time and the work and the emotional energy, it feels like a quick way to solve the problem.

Speaker B: 00:33:46

That's great.

Speaker B: 00:33:47

I appreciate the answer.

Speaker B: 00:33:48

And just for you, the listener, we're an equal opportunist here at the Grace and the Grind.

Speaker B: 00:33:52

We like to piss everybody off, so we like to do both sides.

Speaker B: 00:33:55

Matter of fact, we just like to challenge long held beliefs and whatever your emotional response to that is on you.

Speaker B: 00:34:01

But we pray for you all the time.

Speaker B: 00:34:03

So with that being said, I think this is a great place to start landing the plane of this episode and then just plan for another one a few months down the road.

Speaker C: 00:34:11

And I just want to say, if you are a wife who has been using spicy books as a way to jump start your sex drive, it is most likely that you lack an understanding of the way that your body is physiologically, emotionally, mentally designed to respond to sexual context.

Speaker C: 00:34:29

And that is one of the things that I love to work out with couples in coaching is to figure out how you can work together to get that same jump start without turning to external sources like spicy books.

Speaker B: 00:34:45

I love that.

Speaker B: 00:34:45

With that all being said, there's two last things that we want to do.

Speaker B: 00:34:49

Number one, I want to get you to do a wisdom bomb.

Speaker B: 00:34:51

If you're a long time listener of the show, you know what that means?

Speaker B: 00:34:54

It means a portable truth that you can take and leave right now and apply to your life.

Speaker B: 00:34:57

And then we also want to know, how do we find you?

Speaker B: 00:35:00

So go for it.

Speaker C: 00:35:01

The wisdom bomb would be that sex is designed to be mutually pleasurable and if it's not mutually pleasurable, you shouldn't be doing it.

Speaker C: 00:35:10

We all, we only do mutual pleasure here.

Speaker C: 00:35:13

And if you want to find me, I am the Christian sexpert across all socials and my website is thecri.com wonderful.

Speaker B: 00:35:20

Thank you so much for being here on the show and thank you to the listener for making it to the end of this episode.

Speaker B: 00:35:25

This has been a fiery episode.

Speaker B: 00:35:27

Leave some reviews, ask some questions, and I will highly recommend that you check the links out and go see Angela on all of her socials so that you can learn deeper on how to have proper biblical sex as well as deeper emotional intimacy with your spouse.

Speaker B: 00:35:43

And with that being said, Angela, thank you so much for being on the show.

Speaker C: 00:35:46

Thank you for having me.

Speaker C: 00:35:47

And go have good sex.

Speaker B: 00:35:49

That's it.

Speaker B: 00:35:49

And then so make sure you again, check the show notes.

Speaker B: 00:35:52

And we're just going to invite you to go check out an episode previously to this that you may have missed or wait for the future episodes that come out weekly.

Speaker B: 00:35:59

With that being said, we'll see you on the next one.

Speaker A: 00:36:02

This has been Grayson the Grind.

Speaker A: 00:36:04

We hope you've enjoyed the show.

Speaker A: 00:36:06

If you did, make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon.

Speaker A: 00:36:11

But in the meantime, find us on social media at Lead with Jim.

Speaker A: 00:36:16

Take care of yourself and we'll see you next time on Grace in the Grind.